Public sentiment is multifaceted regarding the Supreme Court's mandate for CCTV in police stations. While many appreciate the move for enhanced accountability, significant concerns exist about privacy violations, implementation efficacy, and the broader impact on police behavior. There is a strong desire for transparency and protection of civil rights, alongside skepticism about actual reforms.

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This is the most bananas shit I've read in a while.

In no way does flipping someone off constitute a crime of disorderly conduct. 

Is there any more to the story? 

If you were in my state, I'd represent you and your brother for free.

RocketCartLtd

Have your brother protest the ticket ( before it is too late) have him go to court.. the judge will throw out the ticket

ironicmirror

Oh, one last thing. Put in a data request for every conversation the neighbor has emailed/texted or called 911.

Honestly405

Stop talking to the cops. The odds of convincing them tonight drop this are too low to risk handing them more info they can use to substantiate the ticket.

lonedroan

I believe Id walk out and flip that camera off on a daily basis.  Make the cops ticket me over and over so then I could sue for harassment and violation of what are clearly my 1st Amendment rights.  Sounds like your police force is manned by people with very low IQ's....or are close friends with your ridiculous neighbors.

spasm111

flipping the bird IS a protected first amendment activity.

in your own back yard? you should have told the cop to kick rocks. theres no legal case for the ticket period in that circumstance.

yelling fire in a crowded theatre is NOT, and more serious consequences considerably worse than a ticket would ensue, particularly if theres no fire and someone became injured as a direct result.

the cameras pointing into your back yard? could potentially be an invasion of privacy.

there are means you can employ to render those cameras worthless that do not cross into trespassing or cause damage to said cameras.

begin with a lawyer, who can advise whether a C&amp;D is possible here with the cameras.

XRaiderV1

Photocopy that ticket and send a copy to your local TV "5 on your side" investigative anchor or whatever they call it in your area.  An absurd abuse of authority like that should easily be news story worthy.

Fulghn

Put one of these "air dancers" in front of their motion activated camera, so that it will record hours of this thing waving around

https://www.amazon.com/stores/LookOurWay/page/8C0FD157-0B4D-4DA7-87A5-EFC9152A8DAB

forkcat211

Oh man this should be fun, get an attorney and go after them for harassment. Do not worry about the ticket, just show up with photos of the location of the incident and the location of the camera and you should have some lovely things to discuss with the judge. The charge is absurd and will definitely be dropped. You have an absolute first amendment right to flip off someone who is spying on your back yard. 

The only real conversation is about what this neighbor is doing and what you can do about it.

Having a paper trail of this whole episode is a good idea

ThirdSunRising

The ironic thing about the cop quoting “similar to yelling fire in a crowded theater” is that the ruling from which that quote comes is considered a very bad historical ruling and has since been severely limited. 

Yelling “FIRE” in a crowded theater is not itself illegal, and must be shown to be likely to “lead to imminent lawless action.”

So anyways, cops an idiot, theres no way that flipping of a camera is a legitimate criminal act, and I highly doubt this story has any truth to it.

i_says_things

That’s not disorderly conduct even in public. Technically you can flip off a cop and tell em to Eff off and that is also not disorderly conduct. That falls under the 1st amendment whether anyone likes it or not. He can have the charges thrown out and sue the police and the neighbor for violating their rights.

PabloCrews

File a peeping Tom report. Spy cameras are illegal.

NeenerKat

The cops wrote the tick to make them happy. They know this will not survive beyond that.

quesofamilia

[deleted]

Go to court. Explain to the judge what the neighbor is doing. The neighbors constantly responding immediately indicates the cameras are there explicitly to spy on you. You're going to need a lawyer to deal with the neighbors but a judge will likely throw out the ticket. Giving the finger on your own property isn't against the law.

redditreader_aitafan

Since you’re in Illinois, if their camera is recording sound, it is 100% illegal. Illinois is an “all-party” consent state, which means the recorder and recorded, both have to consent to the recording. Also, the police are required to uphold this law, so, if your local police are aware your neighbors are recording illegally and not doing anything about it, they are liable as well. Easy win for your attorney.

Tall-Huckleberry8562

The cop is a fucking idiot. Take the hearing and when your brother wins in court give the dumbass cop the finger when he gets outside the courthouse.

Odd_Shirt_3556

First, call the police on the neighbor for invasion of privacy and if your bother is underage or any underage kids in your household file a pedophile complaint. They are obviously perverts. 

Second get a lawyer now and have them send a cease and desist letter. 

Third if you have a fence they have no legal bearing to have camera pointing in your back yard. 

4th get a light source that will burn out the digital sensor.

Timmelle

Disorderly conduct ticket for flicking the bird on your own property?  Please oh please take this to court so it can get laughed out.

kestrel808

Flipping someone off is protected speech - it has been ruled as such NUMEROUS times by untold municipal, district, and circuit courts - and even SCOTUS.

If he was detained because he flipped someone off - the detention was unlafwul.

If he was arrested/cited because he flipped someone off - the arrest/citation was unlawful.

  
This is well settled case law.. Basically, cop effed up, BAD.

OldBayAllTheThings

I guess this police officer has never heard of Brandenburg v. Ohio. The supreme Court case that basically said yes you can yell fire in a crowded movie theater even if there is no fire and even if people are hurt in the process.

feldoneq2wire

Contact the ACLU. This is well settled law, and these cops are overreaching. You should also contact your town council, who has oversight over the police chief, as well as the mayor or town manager, and let them know that ridiculous chestnut about ‘fire in a crowded theater’ despite it being a camera pointed into your own backyard. Make some noise. There may be a statute that prohibits them from having a camera recording your property in the first place, and your brother’s free expression on your own property is absolutely not a ticketable offense.

Viola-Swamp

Have you seen the video?  Are you positive that's all he did?  No finger pistols or anything? 

Something is missing.

PeachOnAWarmBeach

Get a lawyer- the cameras should be pointed into your private space. 

The government is also violating his first amendment right by giving him a ticket. Flipping off a camera isn’t disorderly conduct.

vt2022cam

Police are stupid. This is what freedom of speech protects, if it wasn't a threatening gesture they can't charge him with anything. Quite literally against the 1st amendment

Rhuarc33

Write your local news and absolutely fight that bs ticket. The police's interpretation of the law, while wrong and alarming, matters nothing. The judge' interpretation is the only one that matters. Also look into harassment laws in your area. I would politely point out that misuse off the 911 system is also a crime

agent_smith_3012

Take that shit to court and fight it, sounds like another power trip by the local pd, and see about a restarting order for the neighbors. 

Equivalent-Client443

Firstly this is dumb. Secondly, buy 15 blow up dolls, fill them with helium and then have them float 2 feet off the ground directly where the cameras are. It will rectify this inequity.

NoTomrw

Go to court on the ticket and request a jury trial. One he knows the facts, I doubt the City Attorney would pursue the case. 
Check your state’s law on camera placement too.

Accurate_Mix_5492

You should check the local laws on privacy and CCTV usage. It's considered an invasion of privacy if the neighbors have cameras pointed at your property and are tracking who comes and goes into your home in many jurisdictions. That's a big lawsuit waiting to happen. Best to first get them to admit in court then they put the cameras up so they can surveil who comes and goes on to your property. If you get them to say that in court and Google tells you it's an invasion of privacy, you have a slam dunk lawsuit against them.

Neo1881

Junior_Owl_4447

Dispute the ticket in court bet the cop won't even show his face in front of the judge case thrown out. If the neighbors do anything else against you guys file harassment

School_North

I would tell that cop that if he doesn't drop it, he is going to be named in a lawsuit for 1a infringement..

Kahless_2K

If you can afford it, file a civil suit against the neighbours for violating your privacy.

Radio_Mime

Hire morbidly obese people to lay in you backyard naked.

spanktacular66

First amendment protects his action. Sue the police.

Dear_Engineering2736

Get a big foam had with an extended middle finger and most it in a pole.

Thejerseyjon609

Can your brother get in touch with us at thefire.org/alarm? FIRE is a First Amendment group. I can’t guarantee we can take his case, but we may be able to help find him an attorney.

adamsteinbaugh

Dang cops got time to investigate this kind of stuff. But when I got video of my neighbor stealing my package off my front doorstep  "It's a civil matter" And they "don't have the time or resources to investigate"

TraderSamz

I would NEVER wear clothes in my backyard again. If the cops came, I would answer the door naked.

 Also, it’s flip off, not flick off. 

Salty-Sprinkles-1562

Get a couple of lasers and point them at the cameras in question. 

Plants, trees or other such physical barriers

Call the police yourself and report the neighbor for voyeurism, as im sure the cameras also point to your windows.

IL is also an all party consent state for recording. Could go that route as well

AnonADon123

This isn't even close to the whole story. What has been left out?

snootgoo

So my gut reaction was the same as the rest of the comments.... BUT.... If you squint really hard, I can see how this ticket was issued. The city will likely say you were flipping off the camera, but the neighbors via the camera. Still normally you are allowed to flip people off, but cities/towns do have breaching the Peace / disorderly conduct ordinances. So there are circumstances were simply flipping people off COULD be argued it's breaching the peace. (Time and place, duration, manner, etc.).
  
  


Contested ticket, I would bet my life savings that you would win this case.  I'm just saying there's a reason every lawyers favorite saying is "It depends." Lots of nuances to the law.

woody60707

Get a lawyer and have them contact the court/prosecutor. They should easily be able to get this thrown out. Stop trying to convince the cops. They are obviously not experts on the 1st Amendment.

PsychologicalLaw8769

Artistic_Bit_4665

Source: GEMINI 2.5 PRO

# Flipping the Bird in the Land of Lincoln: Can You Be Cited for Disorderly Conduct?

In Illinois, the act of flipping the middle finger at a neighbor, while offensive, is not in itself a crime and is generally protected as a form of expressive conduct under the First Amendment. However, whether it could lead to a disorderly conduct citation hinges on the specific context and whether the gesture is likely to incite an immediate breach of the peace.

The Illinois disorderly conduct statute (720 ILCS 5/26-1) is broadly written, defining the offense as an act that "knowingly...does any act in such an unreasonable manner as to alarm or disturb another and to provoke a breach of the peace." The key to a disorderly conduct charge in this scenario is the "breach of the peace" element.

While courts have consistently upheld the constitutional right to use offensive gestures to express contempt, particularly towards government officials, the dynamic of a dispute between neighbors introduces a different legal consideration: the "fighting words" doctrine.

# The "Fighting Words" Exception

The "fighting words" doctrine is a recognized exception to First Amendment protections. It applies to words—or in this case, gestures—that "by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace." For a gesture to be considered "fighting words" in Illinois, it must be likely to cause a reasonable person to react violently under the circumstances.

# Neighbor Disputes and the Likelihood of a Breach of the Peace

In the context of an ongoing dispute between neighbors, the act of flipping the middle finger could be viewed differently than a random gesture on the street. If the gesture is part of a pattern of escalating hostility, and is delivered in a confrontational manner that is likely to provoke a physical altercation, a law enforcement officer might issue a citation for disorderly conduct.

Illinois case law provides some guidance. For instance, in *Purtell v. Mason*, a case involving a neighborhood feud that escalated to insulting messages on Halloween tombstones, the court considered the "fighting words" doctrine. While the court in that specific case found the written words did not rise to the level of "fighting words," the case highlights that such disputes can be scrutinized under this legal standard.

Conversely, cases like *People v. Raby* and *City of Chicago v. Blakemore* primarily dealt with public protests and interactions with police. In those situations, a higher tolerance for offensive speech is often expected from law enforcement. This is a different standard than what might be applied to a direct, personal insult between two feuding individuals.

# The Bottom Line

Ultimately, whether the state of Illinois can successfully write and prosecute a citation for disorderly conduct for flipping the middle finger at a neighbor depends on the specific facts of the situation. A prosecutor would need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that:

* The act was done knowingly and in an unreasonable manner.
* It alarmed or disturbed the neighbor.
* It was likely to provoke an immediate violent reaction from a reasonable person in the neighbor's position, thus constituting a breach of the peace.

Therefore, while a single, isolated gesture is unlikely to result in a conviction, if it is part of a larger, confrontational context that is ripe for violence, a disorderly conduct citation could potentially be upheld by an Illinois court.

You know illinois law covers recording other people's backyards? You cant do it

Throwawaypmme2

If the cameras are motion activated then get yourself some pinwheels on stakes from the dollar store. Especially helpful if they’re reflective. Put them in your yard, in view of the cameras, but at normal height, maybe a foot off the ground. 

If they complain then why are their cameras pointed at your backyard?

stannc00

Plant bamboo in pots to block their cameras from seeing in your yard. Or anything that grows tall and is native to your climate. I would plant privacy trees and plants or maybe a shade cloth positioned to block the camera view.  You can aim a flood light at it at night to blind it. HOAs are the worst.

Agreeable-Wing-8476

I’m not a lawyer but I’m pretty sure the actual US supreme court ruled the middle finger to be protected free speech. 

I’d bet if you call the cops supervisor and complain about it and start talking about suing the department it might get dealt with. 

Cops aren’t allowed to do that

ThomasApplewood

The neighbor must know someone on the force…Can your brother take it before a judge?

FullyRisenPhoenix

Just challenge it.  Object to the judge that facts presented actually fit the definition of the charge. 

Uhhh_what555476384

How about calling 911 for a non-emergency? Shouldn’t someone be charged with that?

tribucks

I would put up privacy barriers in your back yard.  Eventually your neighbors will give up harassing you.
Don't antagonize them with noise etc. They'll get tired and move onto something else.
It's worth it if you want to keep your house and sanity

ChickadeeMass

You need to file a complaint about the neighbors having their cameras pointed into your yard.

Medusa_7898

I’d walk around naked scratching my balls a lot.

Blaser53

These kind of neighbors are why people go see The Purge films. 

The judge will throw this out in 20 seconds

SpaceSnark

1st off, you're in the police state of The Republik of Illinois.
Lawyer up, and I guarantee this goes bye-bye. 
I'd water my private lawn naked. The only way anyone is seeing you is because their camera is viewing your personal space. This isn't the public sidewalk in front of your house. This is your backyard.
I'd put a 2nd mortgage on my house if that's what it took to stop these clowns. By clowns, I mean the neighbor and the local police. 
Good luck, and please keep us updated

brokebutuseful

Sounds like you are dealing with cops not smart enough to be cops.

Overall_Curve6725

File stalking and harassment charges against neighbor for monitoring your private party with cameras

FunLisa1228

None of these people have anything better to do?

h-thrust

Go to court. Call the da. After they drop it then flick off the camera every single hour of the day. 

Grab a solar spot light and aim it at the camera. Or put up a huge sheet that covers the viewpoint.

Hopefully you get more tickets after it was dropped. Then sue the department.

giving the bird is a constitutionally protected right under free speech

also -&gt; [10 Sneaky Ways to Jam a Security Camera: Protect Your Privacy Like a Pro](https://surveillanceguides.com/how-to-jam-a-security-camera/)

RubAnADUB

Ok_Constant_184

That cop is really struggling with understanding constitutional law.


Even the yelling fire quote is widely misunderstood.


Depending on funds and persistence, you should fight this until it gets to someone who understands law.  Heck, reach out the ACLU.

Party-Cartographer11

Geri_Petrovna

If you can legally flip off a cop in public you should be allowed to legally flip off a camera from your personal property. 

Setup flood lights pointed at the camera to make them pointless. You can also put up a pinwheel to cause the camera to constantly record. If it’s battery operated that’s a nuisance.

Skeggy-

Don't bother with the cops.    
  
You should get a lawyer to represent you, and also start a civil harassment case against your neighbors and apply for a protection order.  The lawyer should ask the DA's office to drop this.  
  
Contact your local elected officials as well. Several states prohibit neighbors from filming adjoining backyards.   This is the NY Law - [https://codes.findlaw.com/ny/civil-rights-law/cvr-sect-52-a/](https://codes.findlaw.com/ny/civil-rights-law/cvr-sect-52-a/)

If your family can't afford a lawyer, look for local legal aid.  

Based on what you shared in posts, either the cops have a good reason to hate your family OR the neighbors are related to someone on the force and are getting you special treatment.  Like some other people said, I can understand how police can stretch this situation to issue a ticket - however I can't imagine why they'd be doing this unless there exist close personal ties between your neighbor and someone on the force.  I would not be surprised if a brother/uncle/father/son/etc were a police officer and this is the cause of them handling this aggressively.

Lonely-World-981

tardisious

Sad to say, PD will write a ticket so they can close the file. Then you have to go to Court and “tell it to the judge..”.

MSN-TX

Step one put up cameras pointed at them.  Step two mount two disco balls on poles is the line of site of the cameras. Make sure the balls are well illuminated.

billr59225a

NAL the courts will be dropping this. He flipped off a camera that may or may not have been reviewed by somebody. As far as anybody is concerned, he flipped off an inanimate object.

Geargarden

Flipping people off is protected under the first amendment per the supremely court. 

Call them back and let them know duran v county is going to cost the city a pretty penny. 

(Someone flipped off a cop and the cop didn’t like it…)

https://www.marcushillattorney.com/links/flipping-off-the-cops.shtml

BrookeBaranoff

Buy cameras and point them in their windows or at their cameras

Chipchop666

1. Civil damages against the city
2. Is there a fence between your yards? If so, put up a bird feeder on a shepherd's hook right by the fence. You'll have so many sparrows they'll create a privacy barrier

WilzAngie

No no no, that's protected speech. 

"Fire in a theater" is a ridiculous comparison (legally, because in your case, the police are trying to control the *content* of the speech). 

Contest this in court, it's ridiculous.

Magoo69X

Look up the city code. Might not be legal to point a camera in someone's yard.


Could be harassment 

Emotional_Bonus_934

Countercall for a violation of privacy. Or buy a dummy camera and point it right at their cameras.  They will hate that

BlackWulf237

As others have mentioned, you need a lawyer, and IMO you need to turn the heat up on the cops so they don’t take sides again. 

Have your lawyer talk to the DA. My guess is that’s enough to get it dropped. Either way, that lawyer should make it clear to the DA that this or any similar disorderly conduct charge that goes to court will result in a §1983 suit against the officer and government once it is defeated. Then give the cameras the finger as often as you like.

slykens1

Flipping the bird has been ruled freedom of speech by the supreme court, go to court, tell the judge that you were exercising your first amendment freedom of speech and your fifth amendment right to protest (protesting your neighbor pointing cameras in your yard )

There's no way this is going to stick.

HealthyPop7988

Buy a middle finger sign and put it up in front of their camera.

Quietus056

I would flip off that camera every day. The neighbors too, to their face. If you see them outside, casually call their name and flip them off. Invite them to film it. When the cops show up flip them off too. Record all of it, put it on YouTube and monetize the channel. Sue the police and the city, post videos of all of it. 
Profit.

porktent

Generally speaking, in US law “disorderly conduct” means conduct which is likely to cause an immediate “public affray” (a fight). 1st amendment jurisprudence carves out a “fighting words exemption” for disorderly conduct or equivalent statutes. 

It sounds like the police were out of line. If your neighbors were out on their porch and they and your brother were arguing and your brother flipped them the bird, then that could be cause for a disorderly conduct citation. 

Flipping the bird at the coos is ok because a reasonable person shouldn’t have to expect the police to commit an assault in response. 

So basically disorderly conduct is a range of antisocial behaviors and the behavior alleged her is something like deliberately trying to provide an imminent fight. 

Immense is crucial, so the acts, words, or expressive conduct which can be disallowed because it’s likely to cause a fight at that moment can’t be disallowed because of it’s likelihood to cause some later retaliatory reaction. 

One could criticize this aspect of the law ad a “hecklers veto”. If your neighbors stay in their house and ignore you then your finger is legal but if they pour out in a meth fueled rage then your finger is illegal…

What’s important to note is that your neighbors being offended is completely irrelevant. The cops have their heads up their asses. Disorderly conduct  is about conduct which is likely to incite a breach of the peace. A breach/affray doesn’t have to take place. You can be cited for disorderly conduct preemptively to prevent an imminent breach of the peace. 

But you can’t be cited later after the fact for an act which offended someone and could potentially at some later point lead to a conflict. 

It’s the difference between saying “F your mother” to your face and saying to you by telephone, or wearing a t-shirt that says it, or saying it to a cop.

AD3PDX

I thought it was Illegal to point a permanent camera at someone’s house. It’s an invasion of privacy, a disturbance of allowing you to enjoy their property and home. What is wrong with your police department that they don’t know this.

Decent-Loquat1899

The finger is protected language.  See you in court as you’ll win in a heartbeat

Affectionate_Gur9739

Trivial to get out of. Clear infringement of free speach.

firelephant

Oh please. Tell the cops you CANNOT WAIT to hear them argue how this was equivalent to the famous case about yelling “FIRE” in a movie theater. Tell them to be ready to be thoroughly questioned about the analogy. Tell them how it might even make it to social media.

EuphoricUniversity23

Suspicious-Throat-25

I'd get some large posters and put middle fingers on all of them and just stick them in the back yard facing the cameras.

polarbz

I would clearly in your back yard erect a screen out of plywood that blocks the view of the camera.  If the HOA complains ask them about the cameras pointed into your backyard, while maybe not against HOA rules they are against the law.

57Laxdad

CoachMori92

Go through the motions, then sue the police, city county and state, hopefully you get a great payday from the idiots

Beh0420mn

Check to see if the cop whom wrote the ticket is related or affiliated in some way to the complainant.

No_Star_5909

There is  case law establishing that flipping people off actually including the police is a first amendment right.

Drivebyshrink

Call the cops and file a complaint, their camera may violate Illinois 2 party consent law, if it records audio. May be able to sue too, depending on the camera you may also be able to sue if their camera stores biometric information. Should figure out what camera they have and its features because some of the features may leave you open to suing the neighbor. This is if your yard is fenced.

JulianV93

Okay so I stopped reading after your second information post. If you have hard evidence of them harassing you just sue them for harassment. Or if you want to go even further you can pay to have a restraining order put on them which will force them to have to move because if you're in your house and they're in their house it's too close. They're playing dirty you need to do the same

Fantastic_Damage_524

That camera sure is annoying.

Non-destructive solutions are an infra-red floodlight or a moving human shape - a doll or a cutout, rotating or on a string. This will trigger the alarm + recording all the time. 

These people are abusing the police department, law and HOA to annoy you. And it seems like people are giving in to them because it might seem less trouble than to stand up to bullies.

LightPhotographer

So this is a clear violation of freedom of speech as just because it offends you does not make it illegal. There's has been many cases ruled this way and the police are in the wrong.

Whitefoxyoko

Wait, how did the police get access to your house in the first place? If you answered the door and let them in, that was definitely your first and biggest mistake, because without a warrant they would have simply gone away.

But you are correct that the ticket is a blatant violation of the Free Speech Clause under current SCOTUS doctrine. However, you will need to make that argument to a judge, as most US police officers know next to no constitutional law.

adorientem88

Clearly the police chief doesn't know the law. The fire in a crowd is one of the oldest debunked tropes. 

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/11/its-time-to-stop-using-the-fire-in-a-crowded-theater-quote/264449/

NoVA_JB

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